Handicap improved (Feature coding #94)
Instead of having all players exept for the rookie use handicap, add a reversed handicap command that the rookie can use to boost his health and perhaps his damage.
With boost i don't mean he should start with more health, he should just be tougher to kill, just like if the other players used handicap.
This would be alot easier to use in matches, and would not affect gameplay for the other players, as they would still take the same amount of damage from eachother.
Zalon about 5 years agoUpdated by
Why not? Handicap is utter useless; it affects the gameplay for all the players using it, not just the rookie player.
We tried using handicap at last qhlan, to make it possible for rookies to play in the 4on4 tournament, but if there were like 2 rookies out of 8 players in a 4on4 game, the gameplay was ruined for the other 6, as they were the ones who would have to use handicap. So those 6 non-rookie players would give less damage to each other, resulting in long battles and ammo shortage.
Some time ago, raz0 and I added an advantage command to KTX, for use at our local lan parties etc. We use it quite often to play with our irl friends that don’t play QW on a regular basis. When using our advantage command instead of handicap, we can play FFA matches with our rookie friend, and we still need the same amount of hits to kill each other, and him. He can just easier kill us.
Our advantage command works like this:
You write /advantage NUMBER (like /advantage 25)
-And you will get a damage boost of 25%
It shows that the player is using advantage when he goes ready.
It shows the advantage percentage in the player list
I'm not saying this is how it should be; it could increase the health of the player instead.
All I say is that handicap is pure crap, and if we want to have commands to help rookie players - the advantage command I described is a good alternative
deurk about 5 years agoUpdated by
I agree, handicap is NOT good atm./advantage is nice and could even have several impacts.
We should have global variables to allow/disallow some things like the following when using /advantage:
- damage dealt increased
- damage received decreased
- starting ammunitions
- starting health
there's this classical situation
a friend who has been e.g. playing q3 for half a year only for fun with bots
"oh I like Q3, let's play that quakeworld or what, maybe I'll like it"
"no you will not like it when playing against me"
"never mind, but install it and search for newbies"
"ok sometime maybe I will .."
and there you lost one qw player
but with handicap...
sure you don't want it to be used among usual players
but this situation SO calls for handicap
my roommate cannot play qw with me
my cousin cannot play qw with me
but if there was a better handicap...
I think renzo only imagines how this would be misused by regular players
and I agree that'd be kind of disaster
and I don't know how to prevent that
I alredy tells how
setinfo i_am_unwilling_be_affected_by_handicap 1
JohnNy_cz: both players must agree
and when u type ready, it prints, u are affected by JohnNy_cz 400% handicap
Renzo almost 6 years agoUpdated by
What you are trying to do is to get yet another unused worthless feature that will not make a difference in the end. Yes, this feature MIGHT work with "for fun games" but you are REALLY talking about the minority of minutes being played, or actually non-existing.
The problem with handicap in general is:
1) Fact regarding skill: It does not help you to improve in any way, quite the opposite
- You don't need to care about aim as long as you hit somewhat since the damage is increased.
- Talk about ignoring armors, you don't have to stay alive long since you can get the frag easier.
- Keeping places doesn't matter anymore, since you can easily kill armored opponent with more powerful weapons like RL. 200 points of damage instead of 100+rand(20), huh.
- Powerups? Quad becomes immersively powerful, pent is still invincible. Pented noob will totally own quaded noob since he is already doing massive damage and noobs can't run away.
- The games will still end 100-0 when playing against good opponent since handicap doesn't tell you what to do, instead one spawns to rocket all the time while trying to rush some place.
2) Statistical fact: no current player has ever needed handicap, and having this kind of handicap will not affect noobs staying with the game.
3) Double bladed sword fact: When being forced to play without handicap, you're still as shitty as you were before, or even worse due to 1) making you feel as annoyed as ever.
4) Fact regarding players: Old players who want to play the game, will not give handicap to some noobie because they just want to rape. Players who are willing to do so are minority and most probably they are not to be found just that moment.
5) Fact regarding leagues: They do not allow the usage of handicap, what would be the point anyway.
So to sum all up, this is something that only a few would ever use (or noone), and it will not make QW any better or players to stay in QW any longer. It can work in really limited situations where one is playing another just for fun or to show the game, noone else would ever use it. Should we waste resources for something that non-existing amount of people want and is never going to be used instead of doing something really important?
Don't waste your time trying to answer, my opinion about this is clear and it is backed by a large number of players I've talked to about this.
Zalon almost 5 years agoUpdated by
1) Not true - we use our advantage command each week to play with a friend of ours, during the time we have played with him, the percentage of his advantage has been decreased to now where he doesn't even has it turned on on dm2 (the map we usually play with him). He has learned the spawns, the item placement, the item spawn times and his aim has improved. We might still be able to rape him in an 1on1 on dm4 - but the advantage command made it possible for him to play ffa with us.
2) Eh? and because noone has used something that has never been there - we should make it available?
3) Not true, the handicap is annoying - and because of that useless, as it changes the gameplay for everyone exept for just the rookie player.
4) No probably not on some random server with someone they don't know - but I have a lot of friends who I would play with even with the advantage command turned on. Just as johnny_cz mentionen, he has friends/family he could play with too. And I'm sure everyone else has friends that they are willing to play with if it was possible.
5) Now it's funny that you mention leagues - I'm a league admin, johhny_cz is a league admin - and we like the idea, I'm not saying that it's gonna be used in the next season of EQL - since it would be impossible to admin such a thing. But we used handicap at QHLAN11 for the rookie 4on4 tournament, it wouldn't have been possible to have that tournament without handicap. But handicap is so bad that it was annoying - the advantage command is not annoying in the same way, as it doesn't change the gameplay for the other players. At the next QHLAN we are gonna use advantage instead, if it's not in the official build of KTX we will just use a custom one instead.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's a bad idea, nor that other people shouldn't use their time on it. Now I don't know who are included in that large player pool that you have asked, but I havn't met anyone who thought it was a bad idea, exept you ofcause. And about the time wasting - I think I've wasted more time reading and replying to your negative post that I would have used committing the code to svn. And yes I know you wrote I shouldn't use time to reply to your post, as you wouldn't change your mind. But I didn't reply to change your mind - I did it so you wouldn't change anyone elses mind :)
As for players, I just asked about it in #ibh and noone found it stupid or a bad idea, actually everyone thought it was a good idea, not for competive play - but for playing with people you know.
deurk almost 5 years agoUpdated by
Renzo is pretty good at figuring out what's good for the qw "scene", but he lacks the loserness of players like me and tons of others who play not for competition but just to get some fun out of frags sometimes... and it DOES make sense, at least for all those noob/loser players to have a correct handicap functionnality.
Renzo almost 5 years agoUpdated by
Not true? It doesn't matter what you THINK, unless you can prove otherwise (playing against some noob enough rounds will definitely make him better as long as he plays, handicap has nothing to do with this).
Regarding reply 2) - you are wasting resources, see how much people play 1) ra 2) race 3) instagib 4) yawnmode 5) pm_airstep and think about the hours spent there, uh, sorry, WASTED (of course you don't know this) and see how many "issues" are still open on RA and why they don't matter a bit since noone plays it anyway.
-> We should NOT waste time on features that are never being used unless there was someone who actually coded -> currently we can't get even BUGS get fixed even though stable release should have been made in december/january. I am on this project seeing how things won't get done (and getting annoyed by it, I can do only so many things here), you are not so PLEASE stop telling me what to we need to do and what we do not need to do, especially when it won't be used in the first place.
Quote: Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's a bad idea
My answer: just because you like something it doesn't mean it's a good idea
@Deurk: You seem to play with your friends, quite seldom. If you want this kind of feature, then code it and don't push it for Qqshka. I was to tell you something about my gaming here but I don't bother, ask irc for more information.
Renzo almost 5 years agoUpdated by
-> Priority VERY LOW, assigned to Deurk himself.
Requirement: Replaces current handicap totally (there will NOT be two handicaps)
Requirement: Players have possibility/vote to refuse this
Requirement: Ability to disable this feature serverside with variable (guess what servers have this disabled?).
- Priority changed from Normal to Low
- Assignee set to deurk
- Target version changed from 1.35 to Later versions
Zalon almost 5 years agoUpdated by
Wasn't that my point exactly, "playing against some noob enough rounds will definitely make him better as long as he plays, handicap has nothing to do with this" It has everything to do with that, yes he would get better even without "handicap/advantage" - but he wouldn't want to play without it.
I'm not wasting resources, I didn't request ra, race, instagib or yawnmode. That was the coders own ideas, actually I was against using time on the race mod, but I would never be so disrespectful to the coders and say that they have wasted their time doing something they felt good about doing.
And I don't ask you to waste any of your time on this, I requested it - noone did it. So I coded it myself, and as I said earlier I can commit it to the source.
You have no idea if this is gonna be used or not, it was different with RA - noone played that before it was in ktx, so why would they start now? Especially when no effort of popularizing it has been made.
So please stop putting words in my mouth, as I never said what you should do.
"My answer: just because you like something it doesn't mean it's a good idea"
True, but now it's just you who thinks it's a bad idea, everyone else I've talked to thinks it's a good idea, so it isn't really just because I like it, that it's a good idea, it's because everyone seems to like it.
But really I don't care if this get's done or not, if you're gonna be an ass about it and ban it from your servers it surely will be a waste of time coding it. We will just use custom versions of KTX at QHLAN then, as we plan to use the feature - feel free to deny my request.
Renzo almost 5 years agoUpdated by
As I already stated it will replace the current handicap, and it will be done at some point, unless Deurk gets really active and fixes his RA bugs and this handicap even today (won't you?) so send the patch to him and he'll revise it a bit before finalization. So you can have it enabled or disabled on QHLAN and whatever servers you or anyone wishes, I might even test it to make sure it actually works as it should... if I have the time that is.
- Due date set to 23/06/2030
- Status deleted (
- Estimated time set to 1.00
Renzo over 3 years agoUpdated by
Even though I hate the idea of handicap in QW, the handicap has now been improved. A user can specify the handicap value between 50% and 150%. 50% means half the damage one normally does, similarly 150% is 1,5x the damage one normally does.
Now, quit wasting our resources and time with the features noone ever uses, or prove me wrong.
- Status changed from New to Fixed
- % Done changed from 0 to 100